Noah's Blog

I am an atheist as I stated many times before but I do remember my years training to be a preacher at my church's college before I quit. If I were to show this vlog to my church's deaf paster, he would have a shock! Because what you say would shake the foundation of their interpretations. My old church is a fundamentalist independent Baptist type of church. They say that they follow the Bible as the very Word of God breathed into existence by Holy Spirit and written by men as if God used men as the pen and so they claim that if Paul wrote to the Corinthians at that specific time, the Holy Spirit intended to give the message to all the world, not just the Corinthians because the Holy Spirit was writing, not Paul. Wow, I don't want to know my old deaf pastor's reaction *shudder*. He would be terribly angry by your interpretations.
Other than that, even though I am an atheist, I congratulate you for your attempt at respectfully presenting your views on truth. I also believe in one truth that we only see part of. I will someday explain what I mean, being an atheist that I am but still go on and vlog more... why?
Because you are COOL MAN!

Hmmm... it is interesting. I was a member of LCMS (Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod) and the deacon there was somewhat liberal-minded. He asked me to teach Sunday School classes (a BIG no to the women teaching Sunday School to adults) and lead the readings (another no.) Even today, the church forbids the election of women into the church congregation officals (can only be either secretary or treasurer.) I got a lot of flakes and I did show a few verses, I did mention about one lady being called to judge during the OT times, and that the women were the first witnesses to Jesus' resurection (as well as not fleeing from Him when he was arrested and cruxified, with an exception of the disciple John), to name a few.

Oscar... you already have God stamped on your heart and He is knocking softly on your heart. I was an atheist for YEARS, but I read, watched, etc., any that had Christian themes. Then I picked up the Lee Strobel book (it tells of Strobel's interviews with the distinguished scholars who happen to be believers.... same goes for the Case for Faith book.) It is based on facts... I was and AM still interested in facts. I love archeology because it provides facts. Amazing. My problem is with the churches... Everyone has the idea of how the churches should be run. IT is not easy, and I have yet to find a right church that does not conflict with the Bible.

Noah,
You said that women in the Bible were never mentioned as elders. I'm wondering... do you equal pastor to an elder or are they two different functions in the church organization?
Also, in Greek language it is clear that an overseer is to be an husband of one wife...rather than a spouse of a spouse.... In modern translations, I think they mentioned the latter rather than the former because of their translation philophy of dynamic equilvanence. Some modern translations contain the former wording like in ESV, NASB, NKJV, and NIV. Do you separate the pastor from an overseer? I'm curious. I felt you presented a good argument but I just need to ask some questions that I felt there are holes in your argument. I hope you don't mind my questionings too much. Smile.
Brian

Also, I forgot to add to my previous comment. Titus chapter 1 also stated that an elder is to be a husband of one wife as well.
Let you know, I don't think the "putting down" of the women is Biblical. I believe that God intended that man leads the family but man is to give respect to his wife. I believe that Christianity is the only "religion" that shows true and wonderful relationship between husband and wife. I'm very thankful for godly women in my life! I appreciate their love and dedication to Lord Jesus.

I need to change something in my previous comment. I said "the husband is to respect his wife."
I should say, "the husband should love his wife" which includes showing her respect of her standing in the relationship and listening to her opinions since both should become one flesh, meaning fusing each other's lives together.

Brian-

You are right about Paul saying that an overseer must be the husband of but one wife (Titus 1:6). First of all, Paul did summon elders (traditionally bishop) and have them to pastor their church. However, churches start to separate the offices of pastors and bishops in about 2nd century (you can read about this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastor. Thus, I am aware that Paul was implying pastor and bishop as one office, but I, along with many other churches, still separate these offices in order to have an administrative system that works with my church well. IN fact, all churches have different administrative systems. Now, you point out that an overseer must be the husband of but one wife, saying nothing about being the wife of but one husband. I consider it like, “each one of them must take his paper to his teacher” instead of saying, “each one of them must take his or her paper to his or her teacher”. We still do that today. Moreover, Paul would not even say “his or her”, because during Paul’s time almost all women are so new to leading, ministering, teaching, and EVEN learning that there are so many well-equipped women to be an elder, overseer, pastor, or bishop. On the bottom line, Paul saying “an overseer must be the husband of but one wife” definitely does not imply that a woman cannot be an elder, overseer, pastor, or bishop.

You also points out Ephesians 5:22-24 and Colossians 3:18-21. Although I believe this does not imply that a woman cannot exercise authority over men in church, I understand your point. IN some translations the word “submit” is used for Paul’s instruction to wives; however, this word is indeed a terrible word choice. The word “submit” gives people an idea of wives being inferior to their husbands, husbands being in completely control, and etc. In reality, Paul uses this specific Greek word that does not match the concept of the word “submit”. As you said in your latest comment, Paul employs this particular Greek word in order to emphasize that God really wants to see the completely equality in all marriages. I’m on the ASL Bible Translation team and I recall the time when we reached those verses and struggled with which sign we should use for the word “submit” (You can go to http://www.deafmissions.com/?PageID=65 and view which sign we use for the word “submit”). What Paul is saying here is that a husband and wife should submit to each other, leading to an almost perfect marriage. At first, a husband and wife should agree together on which subjects each of them is good at. If both of them agree that husband is really good at disciplining children, then husband should make every final decision with disciplining children after discussing with his wife. If both of them agree that wife is really good at handling finances, then wife should make every final decision with handling finances after discussing with her husband. And so on. I agree with you on your latest comment. Once again, Paul fully support the idea of equality among men and women, showing that he never intends to announce that every single of women all over the world must be in the full submissiveness of her husband and all men in her church. I respect your views as long as you truly respect those women. Thank you so much for your comments! I’m excited to get know you more and discuss with you on different subjects.

-Noah

Noah,

I believe strongly that you were very biased because your mother is a senior pastor. I discussed with my deacon about women being pastors. He would encourage you to look in I Corinthians 14:33-38, and I Timothy 3:2. There may be other passages that tell us that God did not intend for a woman to be a pastor but these two are the ones that come to mind. Your perspective was probably incorrect.
I hope you will reconsider and analyze more because your presentation via vlog can be influential to someone who does not know the Bible very well.
My suggestion for you is to read John MacArthur's "newsletter". Here is an url address:
http://www.gty.org/gcc_distinctives/Role_of_Women_Distinctive.pdfstors

In Christ's love,
Servant to Jesus Christ

Anonymous-

First of all, I want to point out to you that what you are doing is excellent, because God wants us to analyze His word, meditate, and discuss with people.

In regard to 1 Corinthians 14:33-38, please read the first footnote right below my vlog. I discussed Titus 1:6, which is exactly like I Timothy 3:2, in my respond to Brian Lievens’ comments (comment no. 6). Please note that all footnotes from the Life Application NIV Bible Study are written by biblical scholars with international reputations.

I recall when my mom told me she heard someone preaching on the radio that a woman cannot be a leader in a church and explained me his arguments. I had a déjà vu when I was reading John MacArthur’s article on women. But, anyway, I want to let you know my honest observations of his arguments. First, John MacArthur admits that there are women like Deborah acquired a great leadership position, but denies by saying they were clearly exception and not rule. Are you telling me that not all male preachers are exceptional? Every single of male preacher is exceptional, since God only chose few people to be his crucial ambassador. John MacArthur makes it sounds like any male can be preacher, but not female unless it is an exception. Therefore, when you see a male preacher, you see an exception, and when you see a female preacher, you see an exception as well. John MacArthur heavily contradicts with himself in the paragraph discussing Jesus’ position; John MacArthur clearly shows that Jesus rejects standards concerning the status of women that has been held over for many years and encourages women to learn (Mary), argue with men (a lowly Samaritan woman, the one with arguments Jesus let himself to be conceded to), and preach the Good news (Mary Magdalene). Ironically, in the beginning of his article, John MacArthur complains how the feminist movement messes up the order of the church roles whereas Jesus is really a feminist movement activist! The main point here is that time changes. If John MacArthur intensely focuses on those verses concerning the roles of women in the church word by word, then I wonder why he decides not to do the same thing with verses requiring women to cover their head while worshipping. How about verses saying that it is better for a man not to marry? And, so on. Additionally, he argues that all writers of Old Testament and New Testament were men, all chief missionary during the early church era were men, and all apostles were men. Wow, he surely does know the history of the Bible. But, does he know the whole history? Probably not, because he completely forgets that almost every single of ancient writer was man, every contribution to our history book was written by a man, almost all ancient political, religious leaders all over the world were men, and so on. What we need to see here is that what Paul said about the roles of women in the church is not about the strict rules that cannot be bend, but the circumstances and context behind the history.

I have been studying this thing from the day I was born. I hardly remember a day when I notice that there no spirit of God in my mom when she is preaching. I respect your views as long as you respect those women who work very hard to serve our God. I believe that God will not ever reject a woman who wants to serve Him.

-Noah

Anonymous-

By the way, I can name many male pastors who say that a woman can be pastor. Nowadays, many theologians and Biblical scholars agree that a woman can be pastor. You can see that from reading the Life Application NIV Bible Study footnotes. I believe that these references wholly cancel the idea of me being biased.

-Noah

Hey Noah,
Are you under Southern Baptist Convention or something else? I honestly am not deep enough on Baptist History (even though I took a class "Baptist History" in college and the semester went by fast without delving deeply in Baptistic structure of authority). But it seems to be that in Baptist tradition, there are only two offices in a local church (like two ordinances = Communion and Baptisms) - pastors/elders and deacons. Now, you stated that "bishop" is a distinct office than a pastor. Perhaps you were using KJV translation using KJV's wording for an overseer. As from what I read about KJV history, Archbishop Ladd demanded the KJV translators to use "bishop" rather than an "overseer" or "elder" so to keep "bishopric" authority in the Church of England. That's an interesting tidbit in the Bible in English language history. Ladd did that to "insult" the Puritans who desired new translation to unite in England.
Anyway, I'm not sure where you are coming from, SBC or something else. I am an Independent Baptist and I believe in local authority of a local church rather than "submitting" to an overseeing organization. If you are coming from SBC or something like that, you could interpret "bishop" as being different than pastor.
I agree with you about wife and husband being "equal" to each other if both follow God's perfect design for the marriage. Yes, Ephesians 5:21 stated "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." Then Paul delved into beautiful descriptions of Spirit-filled relationships in different relationships like husbands-wives, parents-children, and workers-bosses. In keeping all these verses in context, you would have to say that we are to submit to one another in the fear of God. I remembered your uncle using this sign "relationship" for "submitting" in one of his sermons at my old church. If I could sign this in ASL, I'd say "Relationship each other respect God."
Sorry for being so long in this post. Hope you won't mind this too much!

I liked how Deaf Missions translated that passage.
Seems they used the sign "support" for submitting?